tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8137409915847697670.post8686313362096276153..comments2024-03-17T18:41:00.382-03:00Comments on Patagonian monsters: Y chromosome Haplogroup R in AmericaAWhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11389280995003336103noreply@blogger.comBlogger16125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8137409915847697670.post-47543995557281600872021-12-31T18:01:59.545-03:002021-12-31T18:01:59.545-03:00But they put up with English, French and Spanish y...But they put up with English, French and Spanish years later?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8137409915847697670.post-78694473123298812582019-06-08T16:44:42.718-03:002019-06-08T16:44:42.718-03:00A Mestizo IS a mixed race European, Native America...A Mestizo IS a mixed race European, Native American hybrid! Adna tests cant tell you what tribe your ancestors come from. They can give you a geographic location, but without Documentary evidence like Birth, Death, Babtism Certificates they are only speculating.K Troyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15008280264764461724noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8137409915847697670.post-84625979620506045402019-05-10T01:04:44.286-03:002019-05-10T01:04:44.286-03:00Hudson Bay? The Norse? I dont think the Thousands ...Hudson Bay? The Norse? I dont think the Thousands of Natives who lived in the area would of put up with a bunch of Viking Immigrants in their homelands.K Troyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15008280264764461724noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8137409915847697670.post-73507145400523896802017-01-31T14:54:56.993-03:002017-01-31T14:54:56.993-03:00nymous said...
Good blog. I will add that:
The Oj...nymous said...<br />Good blog. I will add that:<br />The Ojibwe originated on the east coast of Canada and were there when the Vikings - Norse-Gaels arrived. They migrated west at about that time, possibly due to Smallpox and other diseases carried by the Norse. The Norse-Gael colony of 8000 in Greenland "disappeared", but more likely they evacuated possibly into Hudson's bay where they didn't have to compete with the skraelings. There is evidence of Norse camps in the islands north of Hudson's Bay. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8137409915847697670.post-77090821704668512612016-12-20T14:43:49.546-03:002016-12-20T14:43:49.546-03:00Better watch out Natives! Instead of Christian god...Better watch out Natives! Instead of Christian god worshippers who want your souls, you now have these American science woshippers, who will cry, complain and Whine, that they need your ancestors and your own DNA, just tell them to go to hell!NKent805https://www.blogger.com/profile/06311041906627739245noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8137409915847697670.post-76808487882765138372016-05-12T09:51:53.716-03:002016-05-12T09:51:53.716-03:00I took two DNA tests. One said I was European the ...I took two DNA tests. One said I was European the other test said I was Pehuenche (Mestizo) Indian. Lets hope I never have to have a paternity test in North America.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8137409915847697670.post-8606900023792731872015-10-09T00:51:13.083-03:002015-10-09T00:51:13.083-03:00The two explanations don't count for the Ojibw...The two explanations don't count for the Ojibwa, I mean how many Spanish explorers got to the Wisconsin/Minnesota area. Those states are not know for having slaves either.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8137409915847697670.post-1413771656381672182015-01-17T21:12:01.849-03:002015-01-17T21:12:01.849-03:00This comment has been removed by the author.Craig Hullingerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06023899563795271215noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8137409915847697670.post-48720936938546847692015-01-17T14:02:53.952-03:002015-01-17T14:02:53.952-03:00Interesting post. I agree that there is too much ...Interesting post. I agree that there is too much R among northeast North America Native Americans to all be from post Columbian males. But the origin near Hudson Bay makes it look to me that it came from Europe. More on http://dnaamerica.blogspot.com/Craig Hullingerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06023899563795271215noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8137409915847697670.post-68597247842968875442014-07-22T19:11:27.452-03:002014-07-22T19:11:27.452-03:00Guaraní in Paraguay keep their ancient language as...Guaraní in Paraguay keep their ancient language as well as the Bolivians, both countries have many speakers of their "official" native languages.<br />Brazil is a peculiar case. They kept on killing the natives especially in the southern part well into the 1700s. They raided the Jesuit Missions there. No wonder they had to import millions of African slaves to make up for the natives that were virtually exterminated. The only thing left of the Tupi culture in Brazil is the place names. Brazilians have a high Afro admixture and of course the pre-1700s native Tupi-Guaraní stock. So the half continent may be there but not the culture. <br />I suggest visiting the highlands in Ecuador, Bolivia and Perú or visit some locals in Castro, Chile, Aluminé, Argentina. Those are natives with little admixture of Europeans. <br />Argentine admixture with Europeans is very interesting indeed. A population of 500,000 in 1860 grew to 5.5 Million by 1900, and due to the influx of Europeans, mainly from Spain and Italy, Admixing in the coastal areas, but not so in the interior. There is a large proportion of Amerindian mtDNA and Y chromosmes in Argentina (http://www.educ.ar/sitios/educar/recursos/ver?id=90812) despite this influx of Europeans. <br />The Amerindian civilizations despite being decimated by the Spaniards had a much larger population than the prairie indians in the US or the Amazonian slash and burn natives. <br />The impact of natives in Spanish speaking Americas was more significant than in the US, Canada or Brazil. African populations and Native Americans have an inversely proportion more of one less of the other (US, Brazil high, rest of America: low). The Taino were exterminated so Cuba, Haiti, Republica Dominicana have a large Afro population.<br />The Botocudos are an interesting case. See this paper: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23576724 <br />Their Polynesian genes came via slave trade from Africa!<br />and this reply closes posts on the subject.<br />Thanks for your comments.AWhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11389280995003336103noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8137409915847697670.post-22459447287260717942014-07-21T13:19:54.660-03:002014-07-21T13:19:54.660-03:00Well, so good that your rural latin america is jus...Well, so good that your rural latin america is just the aymara, a drop of water in an mestizo ocean!! How many rural argies will ever say they are "indios" or that they care of what their great great grandparents believed? They are rather ashamed of it and deny it that they have redskin blood in them - meaning the mentality changed aka not the same. The vast majority of the region is westernized - and in fact they are considered part of the west for the most because no indian culture has been left unchanged.In Brazil, perhaps half of south america in territory and population alone, you can count straight haired people who maintain significant amerindian believes with your left hand. Same thing in Panama, Carribean or whatever. I can't believe that you come with this rural latin americans are amerindians with milennial culture. LOL Racially, there will be many in Mexico to be fair with you. I guess we have to leave this with 99% of scholars who say LatAm culture is western = not amerindian and that includes the rural areas.<br />And the ones who are really amerindians are very different from their pre-colombian times too. Changing religion, language and ethinic clothing is a SIGNIFICANT difference. It's pretty much a big loss, yet there you are.<br /><br />As for the 95%, firstly the nnumber is highly debatable. Secondly, I don't deny that the pre-colombian natives could have more lineages, BUT there is no significant changes which means continuity. There are a lot of remains in the Andes that has been tested and no surprise. There are even studies on the continuity of ancient quechuas and aymaras and the modern ones, from what I know. I admit I'll have to look this up to know it in detail, but overall I maintain strong continuity between ancient amerindians and modern ones even with the australoid discontinuity of past indians and modern Guaranis or Botocudos.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8137409915847697670.post-68237769816922956332014-07-17T19:21:11.464-03:002014-07-17T19:21:11.464-03:00German, yes what is needed is to find hg R in pre-...German, yes what is needed is to find hg R in pre-Discovery remains, that should settle the issue. <br />I also noticed that there are references to P, F (in Seminole and some Costa Rican natives, the Boruca), which will be the subject of another post. And may not be Founding Lineages.<br />Thanks for the link.AWhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11389280995003336103noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8137409915847697670.post-53995054259533522962014-07-17T09:41:19.871-03:002014-07-17T09:41:19.871-03:00"I believe that the reason for this is that h..."I believe that the reason for this is that haplogroup R was already present among the natives as a founding clade in America, introgression with Europeans added some percentage points to the mix, and very likely it incorporated new European R haplotypes, but there was a substantial presence of hg. R among North American natives. These appear as we will see below in the joining-network trees as outliers with unique haplotypes not shared with Europeans. The exceptions that confirm the rule.<br /><br />The issue can be easily settled. An in depth sequencing of native hg. R haplotypes would help distinguish the "American" lines from those haplotypes that are surely "European", however this has not been done. There is a clear preconception - prejudice among scholars that simply ignores the option that hg. R is a founding lineage among Amerindians."<br /><br />I agree that it's possible that Native American Rs is a mix of pre-Columbian and post-1492 variants and I agree that labs need to spend more time teasing it out. However there are a few considerations that make the mainstream position understandable. 1) Unlike mtDNA hg X, Y-DNA hg R hasn't been confirmed in pre-Columbian ancient remains for the simple reason that we don't have any ancient Y-DNA samples yet. The discovery of mtDNA hg X in pre-Columbian remains was a decisive factor in vindicating this lineage as an indigenous one; 2) mtDNA hg X is a rare (albeit pervasive) lineage in Europe. If it originated from post-1492 contacts then more common European markers such as hgs H and U would have been widely found in Native Americans. Y-DNA hg R is widely found in Europe and finding it in America fits the model of post-Columbian admixture well; 3) Asymmetric sex-based gene flow (no common European mtDNA markers but plenty of European Y-DNA markers in America) fits well with the colonization mode of admixture when European men married into tribes, but the opposite process was rare; 4) Ancient Mal'ta DNA in Siberia is mtDNA U and Y-DNA R. mtDNA U is not found in the Americas, while its sister clade B is. In Siberia, hg B is rare to non-existent. Y-DNA R is not found in the Americas but it's sister clade Q is. Hg Q is rare in Siberia as well. There seems to be a meaningful pattern here.<br /><br />I'd like to bring your attention, Austin, to the presence of "underived" Y-DNA hg P* lineages in America. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1180678/figure/FG2/. They, too, tend to be more frequent in North America, although more among Na-Dene than among non-Na-Dene populations. The fit with hg X is not perfect but with more data from tribes it may become better. Y-DNA hg P* is upstream from most common European R and Amerindians Q haplotypes just like mtDNA X is upstream (in most mtDNA phylogenies) from European U, H and Amerindian B haplotypes.German Dziebelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10703679732205862495noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8137409915847697670.post-66962039208035819772014-07-16T18:58:36.735-03:002014-07-16T18:58:36.735-03:00Christians? yes, and incredibly, they still mainta...<br />Christians? yes, and incredibly, they still maintain (Argentina) their older beliefs, I have seen their offerings to Pachamama, some food, the stub of a cigarette, <br />some coca leaves, an act of appeasement to the mother Earth goddess. The apachetas (or stone cairns serve) the same purpose, they are very ancient,<br /> and can be found from the south of Patagonia to the Andean Plateau next to Bolivia. So do the ribbons or strips of cloth tied to the branches of certain trees.<br />Very very old customs.<br />Peppers and corn drying on the ground as a source of food for the winter, different varieties of Andean potatoes some red, others purple, some the <br />size of an olive, others like a wallnut. They still cook their ancient foods and maintain their ancient traditions and ancient customs. Llama jerky (sometimes replaced by <br />goats -which were introduced by the conquistadors) is seen drying in the cold dry mountain air.<br /><br />They still till the soil and use the irrigation channels built before the Spaniards arrived.<br /><br />Yes, now they have schools and medical care, there is a church in each village and a sattelite dish on many adobe huts. The twentyfirst century does <br />find its way into their lives, but the women still weave and knit the wool of llamas and alpacas in the way their ancestors did, by hand. Dyed with <br />local plants...<br />The imperial serf systems of Mita, Yanacona, Encomienda (to mention some) of enforced labor for the state were quickly adopted by the Spaniards and used <br />to exploit the natives. The aldeas de Yndios sprung up on the sites of the fomer native villages, and close by, the Spanish lord built his Villa and chapel.<br />One master replaced another. The official religion was replaced by Catholicism.<br /><br />Children sacrifice in Perú was not all that frequent (It was known as capacocha), it took place on the summits of certain volcanos. But heart plucking seems to have been more common, among <br />the Aztecs. But that was nothing compared to the catastrophe caused by discovery.<br /><br />Genocide. The population of local natives dropped catastrophically due to contact with the Europeans. War as well as disease took its toll.<br />Look at the Kilmes of the Calchaqui River valley in Tucuman, Argentina. They held out in a mountain fortress against the Spaniards for years during the <br />century long Calchaqui Wars (1560 - 1666), they defeated in an unexpected mid-winter raid and were disbanded, transplanted to Buenos Aires, forced to walk there -1,200 km or 746 mi- <br />hundreds died on the way. They were "reducidos" (restrained) in what is now a suburb of Buenos Aires, the town of Quilmes until 1812, when the remaining three descendants of the Kilmes were <br />set free. Thousands had died.<br />This took place all over America, take the epidemic of 1518 in the Caribbean: "There occurred an epidemic of smallpox so virulent that it left Hispaniola, Puerto Rico, Jamaica and cuba desolated of Indians"<br />(1518) Oviedo y Valdes G. F. (1851-1855), Historia General y Natuarl de las Indias... , Vol 1. 105.<br /><br />The dreadful impact of discovery and conquest on the genome of the original people of America is often overlooked: Bernardo Veksler in his "Una Vision Critica de la conquista de America", states that out of the "<br />the American Indians were at least seventy million or maybe more when the foreigners showed up on the horizon. One and a half centuries later, they were <br />reduced to only three and half million". That is one big bottleneck, only 1 out of 20 natives survived, 95% of the genetic diversity of America died out. What is left today is just a pale shadow of what <br />it once was. That is why I emphatically suggest that the remains of Amerindians should be sequenced, they hold the variety that has been lost.<br />The Black death which only wiped out 33% of Europeans impacted in its genetic diversity, reducing it (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1216062/ and http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn12393-black-death-casts-a-genetic-shadow-over-england.html#.U8bIhvl5OQo)<br />Imagine the impact of a 95% population drop!<br /><br />AWhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11389280995003336103noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8137409915847697670.post-70973060598853534932014-07-16T10:41:14.764-03:002014-07-16T10:41:14.764-03:00A contact with viking or ibearians would have kill...A contact with viking or ibearians would have killed the natives from deseases since you find the haplogroup in a rather big geographical area... that would mean, to me, that some wide contact would have taken place. And, well, the puritan british left no pure blooded north american natives, actually, you can see they are very very mixed. The thing in Latin America is that they could move to the villages and cities, reproduce and increase their number and then mix to whites while leaving some pure people behind in tribes or the cities. If you spoke poruguese and wore clothes, you were civilized by lusitanian standard (perhaps the most open minded whites ever). By british standard your very physical appearence was an issue, and therefore you should be erased from this land or put in concentration camps to eat rations and get lazy.<br /><br />For me a common source for R and X is reasonable, though.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8137409915847697670.post-51829694885101211952014-07-16T10:12:32.295-03:002014-07-16T10:12:32.295-03:00If you disagree the way the dna tests have been do...If you disagree the way the dna tests have been done, why bothering testing ancient remains that eventually will make people jump into wrong conclusions? They are completly right in not allowing to explore their blood. Also, this is mostly where racism and bigotry is rampant like the US. South American natives have given their samples several times with rare objections to it.<br /><br />"We should always remember that we are looking at those who survived and not the millions who perished and took their haplotypes with them to their graves."<br />From what I know there is genetic continuity of modern and ancient amerindians even when you have phenotypical discontinuity with the ainu-polynesian-australian-melanesian remains.<br /><br />And also, what's with the unchanged amerindian lifestyle in rural latin america thing? Most are christians, don't speak their languages, wear different clothes - or just wear clothes since many did not, live in different territory, go to school or hospital... And this are the ones who say they are amerindians, let alone the ones who say they're mestizo (even if they look east asian LOL) which is what most rural latinos say they are. Ummm... I think I might travel to Peru and watch some child sacrifice. you know, for the fun.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com